Pajamas Media » First They Came for the Gays

First They Came for the Gays

PJM Oslo: Once an oasis of tolerance, Europe is slowly but surely succumbing to Islamization. "Sharia law may still be an alien concept to some Westerners," writes Bruce Bawer. "But it's staring gay Europeans right in the face -- and pointing toward a chilling future for all free people."

January 29, 2008 - by Bruce Bawer

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One day last month, I gave a talk in Rome about how the supposedly liberal ideology of multiculturalism has made possible the spread in Europe of the highly illiberal ideology of fundamentalist Islam, with all its brutality and - among other things - violent homophobia. When I returned to my hotel, I phoned my partner back home in Oslo only to learn that moments earlier he had been confronted at a bus stop by two Muslim youths, one of whom had asked if he was gay, started to pull out a knife, then kicked him as he got on the bus, which had pulled up at just the right moment. If the bus hadn’t come when it did, the encounter could have been much worse.

Not very long ago, Oslo was an icy Shangri-la of Scandinavian self-discipline, governability, and respect for the law. But in recent years, there have been grim changes, including a rise in gay-bashings. The summer of 2006 saw an unprecedented wave of them. The culprits, very disproportionately, are young Muslim men.

It’s not just Oslo, of course. The problem afflicts most of Western Europe. And anecdotal evidence suggests that such crimes are dramatically underreported. My own partner chose not to report his assault. I urged him to, but he protested that it wouldn’t make any difference. He was probably right.

The reason for the rise in gay bashings in Europe is clear - and it’s the same reason for the rise in rape. As the number of Muslims in Europe grows, and as the proportion of those Muslims who were born and bred in Europe also grows, many Muslim men are more inclined to see Europe as a part of the umma (or Muslim world), to believe that they have the right and duty to enforce sharia law in the cities where they live, and to recognize that any aggression on their part will likely go unpunished. Such men need not be actively religious in order to feel that they have carte blanche to assault openly gay men and non-submissive women, whose freedom to live their lives as they wish is among the most conspicuous symbols of the West’s defiance of holy law.

Multiculturalists can’t face all this. So it is that even when there are brutal gay-bashings, few journalists write about them; of those who do, few mention that the perpetrators are Muslims; and those who do mention it take the line that these perpetrators are lashing out in desperate response to their own oppression.

Never mind that Europe, far from oppressing Muslims, offers personal freedoms and welfare-state benefits far beyond those available in any Muslim country. Never mind that few if any Europeans - certainly not gay people - are doing any Muslim-bashing. Never mind that Hindu and Buddhist immigrants, or immigrants from South America or China, feel no compulsion to react violently against their “oppression.” No, assaults by Muslims always have to be construed as defensive - as expressions not of power but of weakness, not of aggression but of helplessness. To suggest that the culprits, far from being fragile, sensitive flowers who’ve been pushed over the line by something we did, are in fact bullies driven by an overweening sense of superiority and a deep-seated malice - both of which they’ve been carefully taught at home, at school, and, yes, in the mosque - is verboten.

One familiar response is: “Well, non-Muslims beat up gays, too!” Yep - indeed they do. Yet for a while there, in much of Western Europe, homosexuality was on its way to being a non-issue. In Amsterdam in the late 1990s, I was delightfully surprised to discover that when groups of straight teenage boys passed gay couples in the streets, they just walked past without any reaction whatsoever. The sight of gay people didn’t upset, threaten, amuse, or confuse them; the familiar, insecure urge to respond to open homosexuality with some kind of distancing, disdainful word or gesture - and thereby affirm to one another, and to themselves, their own heterosexual credentials - was simply not part of those kids’ makeup. For me, it was a remarkable experience. Amsterdam then seemed to me the leading edge of a new wave in the progress of human civilization.

Alas, it is now very clearly the opposite. The number of reported gay-bashings in Amsterdam now climbs steadily year by year. Nearly half Muslim, the city is a front in the struggle between democracy and sharia, under which, lest it be forgotten, homosexuality can be a capital offense. Things have gotten so bad there that even on the part of the exceedingly politically correct, there has been a degree of acknowledgment that something has changed, and is still changing. After a group of Amsterdam Muslims beat up Chris Crain, the six-foot-five editor of the gay newspaper The Washington Blade, in May 2005, the head of the Netherlands’ leading gay-rights organization admitted that tolerance of gay people in that city was “slipping away like sand through the fingers” and that “gays and lesbians are less willing to walk hand-in-hand because they might be beaten up.”

I can testify that this is true. Yet politicians, journalists, activists, and others who cling to the multicultural mindset can’t bring themselves to acknowledge the Islamic foundations of all this bullying. Instead, they offer the same kind of nonsense that was served up by a Human Rights Watch spokesman after the Chris Crain incident. “There’s still an extraordinary degree of racism in Dutch society,” that spokesman said. “Gays often become the victims of this when immigrants retaliate for the inequities they have to suffer.”

So powerful is the determination to turn away from the plain and simple truth that Amsterdam mayor Job Cohen recently commissioned a study by the University of Amsterdam. Its purpose? To try to figure out what motives underlie the increase in attacks on gay men and lesbians by Dutch-Moroccan men in Amsterdam. “Some researchers,” wrote a reporter for UPI, “believe they [Muslim gay-bashers] lashed out at local gays after feeling stigmatized by Dutch society.” In other words, as the straight-talking Norwegian immigration expert Inger-Lise Lien put it sardonically when I showed her the article, “it’s the assailant who’s the real victim.”

As for Cohen, he would appear to be operating out of pure cynicism. This is the same mayor, after all, who has called for the Netherlands to reach some “accommodation” with its male Muslim residents that would allow them to oppress their wives, sisters, and daughters - though he hasn’t been entirely clear as to just where he would draw the line. (Beatings? Rape? Forced marriage? Genital mutilation? Honor killing?) Given such an extraordinary record of pragmatism, it seems safe to assume that Cohen would also be more than willing, in the name of peace in our time, to turn away with respectful discretion when Muslim gangs beat the living daylights out of the occasional flikker.

In any event, another mayor, London’s Ken Livingstone, has already blazed that trail. In 2004, playing host to Sunni scholar Yusuf al-Qaradawi, who has supported the execution of gay people, Livingstone hailed him as a “progressive.” When gay activists called him on this ridiculous assertion, Livingstone retaliated by putting out a dissertation-length report whitewashing Qaradawi and smearing his critics as racists.

Even as Europeans in positions of authority persist in denying the plain facts about Muslim attitudes toward gay people, leading European Muslims keep reminding us what those attitudes are. Take Norway’s Asghar Ali, deputy chairman of Norway’s Islamic Council. Ali, who also holds high-ranking positions in Norway’s ruling Labor Party and in the powerful Norwegian Confederation of Trade Unions, and has worked in an advisory capacity on the government’s Equality and Anti-Discrimination Ombud, would seem to be a model of successful assimilation. Yet at a November 2007 debate arranged by the gay student organization at the University of Oslo, he refused to reject the death penalty for gays. When asked about this issue, the head of the Islamic Council, Senaid Kobilica, said that Norwegian Muslims needed to discuss it and consult religious authorities. “While this process is underway,” Kobilica said, “I ask for understanding and respect for the fact that I am unable to comment, either about my personal position or about the position of the Islamic Council of Norway.” Understanding and respect, that is, for his unwillingness to say flat out that he did not believe gay people should be murdered.

Perhaps younger, well educated Muslims are more enlightened? Another participant in the University of Oslo debate, Muslim Student Association head Usman Rana, said that he personally didn’t support making homosexuality a capital crime, but that he would not criticize other countries’ practices. “There is unfortunately a tendency in Norway to degrade religious people,” Rana told Universitas, the college newspaper. “It is due to an extreme secularism among the Norwegian public. I fervently hope that our participation [in the debate on the death penalty for gays] helps to create a more nuanced view of Islam. The Norwegian public needs to become more liberal.” Once again, it’s the assailants - or, in this case, the would-be executioners - who are the real victims.

The Norwegian public may not yet be “liberal” enough to suit Rana, but the European establishment has been exceedingly so. Though Kobilica’s refusal to condemn the execution of gays caused a brief stir in the media, the Norwegian government has made no move to withdraw the Islamic Council’s annual subsidy of half a million kroner (about $100,000). Government officials and journalists continue to treat the council with deference, to view it as the Voice of Muslims, and to pretend that it is a voice of moderation. Once the flap over executing gays died down, moreover, politicians and others returned soon enough to the mantra about Islam being a religion of peace.

It’s very clear what’s going on here - and where it’s all headed. Europe is on its way down the road of Islamization, and it’s reached a point along that road at which gay people’s right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is being directly challenged, both by knife-wielding bullies on the street and by taxpayer-funded thugs whose organizations already enjoy quasi-governmental authority. Sharia law may still be an alien concept to some Westerners, but it’s staring gay Europeans right in the face - and pointing toward a chilling future for all free people. Pim Fortuyn saw all this coming years ago; most of today’s European leaders still refuse to see it even though it’s right before their eyes.

Bruce Bawer’s book While Europe Slept is now in paperback. His website is at www.brucebawer.com.

137 Comments

David Thomson:

The situation is becoming desperate. This is why we must all support non-racist, right of center political parties. The leftists who dominate their respective political parties in Europe and the United States are out to lunch. They simply cannot overcome their fatuous guilt over racial issues. Dark Skinned people are inherently presumed to be victims. We supposedly do not even have the right to defend ourselves. Please also note my carefully chosen words describing the sort of political parties that are required. We must be very cautious that David Duke and his ilk do not take advantage of our predicament.

Jan 29, 2008 - 2:53 am Steve:

Europe cannot continue to have its cake and eat it too. Devoid of any moral basis and lack of an opposing Christian fiber, it is left to a stunning rise in Islamic fundamentalism. The declining birth rate will soon become another issue as the number of children born of Muslim families in Europe outpaces the European model by a factor of 8:1. Gays aside…it won’t be long for Sharia law completely transforms Europe simply by waiting for people to die off - replacing the next generation with voting Muslim children.

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:57 am Texas:

Precisely. We need leaders in the West who are *egalitarian*, and seek to protect the liberty of each individual to make his or her own choices without the interference of government or special interest groups.

This is opposed to far right “leaders” who want to impose their own view of morality on the rest of society, or far left “leaders” who want to empower “historically victimized groups” with special rights and powers. Both are anathema to true liberty.

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:03 am Paul from Florida:

The future belongs to those that show up for it. In Europe, that would be the products of Muslim wombs.

Two generations, max, and Europe is Dar al Islam.

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:12 am Belgium:

Reading this through, sadly it became clear that what you were saying is spot on. Something that an adequate fraction of Europe has come to realise, something that apparently foreigners have come to realise, but something that leading politicians fail to see or admit.

In my opinion, there are two factors contributing to islamisation in Europe:
- a lack of control systems for such organisations, i.e. a system which relies too much on good faith
- a systematic “turning the other cheek”-effort of mishaps they [Muslim organisations] happen to make.

Now, it’s self-evident that not all Muslims are criminals or whatever, but it’s less evident that a larger fraction of them are, as confirmed by independent studies.

Again, two factors contribute to this:
- The fact that immigrant families live in linguistic and relative financial isolation, plus often the lack of education (had as well as stimulated)
- The over-aiding of minorities.

A little guidance on this last issue: minorities must, of course be protected in case a majority tries to overcome them in any unnatural way. The sad truth, however, is that these minorities are given carte blanche by the authorities. Not only that, but whatever they do do, they’re subsidised for it.

In effect, what Europe needs now is right-wing governments, e.g. Sarkozy in France. This slightly opposes the informal fundaments upon which the EU was built, being libert√©, egalit√© et fraternit√©. However, anything opposing these values, be they from outside or within, should be dealt with accordingly, and that is what’s failing to happen today. Right-wing parties are gaining ground, but what is the need and what, and the populace is starting to see the need for, is rationalist right-wing parties, not fascist or totalitarian parties. A sort of re√Øntegration of Muslims is necessary, not an eradication of them.

Needless to say right- and left-wing America are not comparable, right-wing Europe is still fairly left-wing to American standards.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:29 am Diggs:

Wow, in the first four comments, two declare moral relatavism between sharia and the “Religious Right”. The Left, and it’s multiculturalism, is what is allowing muslim youths to go around bashing European gays. But it is the moral relatavism on display here and across much of the political spectrum in Europe and America that is keeping a coherent response to those muslim youths from being put forth by the society. To hear people espouse the idea that sharia is as dangerous to the freedom of a people as is a televangelist is simply stunning. Not only stunning, but incredibly misguided and dangerous. Such ignorance of sharia, and what is being taught in madrassas around the world, couple with a form of ACLU dementia when it comes to “the “Religious Right” is more dangerous to freedom than the “Religous Right” will ever be.
Keep dreaming that the dangers are equivalent and you will surely lose your freedom that much faster.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:33 am Steve from USA:

The writings on the wall.
After two world wars that wiped out two generations and an almost universal rejection of Christian principles, Europe is reaping the harvest it has sowed.
You can’t mock God and get away with it. There are reasons the Almighty forbid the practice of homosexuality.
The author wants to live in this fantasy world where everybody just gets along and everybody does whatever they want. Sorry, this is the real world with real people and real evils to deal with.
Europe threw out the God of the Bible to serve the god of themselves. The God of the Bible has abandoned you to face Devil with out his help. That Devil is Allah.
Maybe you can still repent before it’s too late.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:43 am Boston:

The leaders on the religious right are not as dangerous as the leaders on the left, because the vision of the religious right is usually built on an idea that God has created the dignity of mankind. People on the right have a theory of why the individual matters: God. But the left has no theory of the transcendent dignity of man. People on the left are subject to currents of theory and guilt: one is “we’re so guilty it’s wrong to defend ourselves.” No religious right person, even a nut, will go THAT far. The right wing, I assert, is more trustworthy on these issues.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:43 am buzz:

But, but, but … what about George Bush! He’s against gay marriage, a right US gays have enjoyed since, well, 2004. Let’s focus on the REAL issue and stop hate-mongering against the poor oppressed muslims who only want to kill gays!

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:46 am BL:

Europeans MUST realize that a tipping point is fast approaching. Demographic realities will allow Muslims and Muslim sympathizers to begin electing politicians who pander to their demands for their votes. Within 10 years, a veil will be REQUIRED to be worn by ALL European women, to avoid being raped or worse, and alcohol will be banned in the EU. Stand now or you will live under Muslim oppression. Look up the word DHIMMI. Muslims are experts at oppression, and have been for over a thousand years. Women, gays, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Bhuddists have no rights in Saudi Arabia, home of Muhammed and Mecca.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:46 am amr:

I have yet to understand those that support Multiculturalism. Especially those who do so to the point where fundamentalist Islam intolerance and violence is ignored; ignored by the elites, politicians, government and the very people who are now rapidly becoming their victims.

Remember this: First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me. - Pastor Martin Niem√∂ller.

Will we in the West ever learn?

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:47 am joe:

Fortunately, here in the U.S., we have a fundamental right to self defense, up to and including the right to keep and bear arms (at least for now). This right should be universal, yet many in Europe balk at this idea, and that’s a serious flaw in philosophy. The next time some young Muslim thug pulls a knife on someone who is gay, the thug should understand fully that he will he shot. This is the old “freedom is not free” scenario; all free people must be willing to fight and prevail over those who attempt tyranny, and unfortunately the fighting necessary is vile, ugly, and brutal. There is just no avoiding the fight but for surrender.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:09 am JohnnyL:

Why should the extremist views held by the members of various religions be given anymore protections or toleration than those of say a political party…..hmmmm….say the views expressed by someone like Hitler for example? people have no problem facing down political adherents that try to get traction in the public arena for pushing such notions but want to give people pushing the same views but doing so in the name if religion all the excuses possible as to why they would be allowed to implement their views on the rest of us.

The real problem here is that we have been told for decades now (especially in Europe) that morals and ethics are relative….but the really aren’t. There are some basic human freedoms and principals that should be considered universal. they should serve as foundations upon which to build a society. If that is what we in the west truly believe, then we need to start standing for that, demanding that our politicians and bureaucrats start toeing the line on this. Its time the islamofascists and anybody else of their ilk have it made clear to them what the basic rules in a free western society are and if they can’t live with it they should go elsewhere. they need to be made to understand, even if its at the business end of a Doc Marten that their kind of intolerance will not be tolerated. They are welcome to spew their bile from a soapbox but if they intend to take physical action then they will be eliminated.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:19 am JFP:

I have no understanding of today’s leftists. I watched Iranian leftists push to eliminate the Shah, and then I watched them get elbowed aside as the Muslims took over and instituted a far-right theocracy.

I haven’t trusted Muslims since then.

I can’t imagine what other leftists were thinking when this happened. Were they not paying attention? Are they more anti-American than leftist, so that the new anti-American regime in Iran was all that mattered?

Another thing I can’t understand is that they seem to think the average Westerner needs to undergo sensitivity training, while the average immigrant doesn’t. Yet, the average immigrant seems even more sexist and homophobic than the worst Westerners.

Again, I have no understanding of any of this.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:34 am Matt S.:

Hi Bruce,
Please continue to encourage your friend to report the incident to the authorities. It may just save the next victim’s life. If nothing else patrols in the area should be made aware of the incident to increase their own situational awareness of what they might be walking into.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:40 am Heather:

Fortunately, here in the U.S., we have a fundamental right to self defense, up to and including the right to keep and bear arms

Not in Illinois, Wisconsin, or most major cities…

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:43 am CaptDMO:

At what point did “Gay” become a noun in the English lexicon?

For clarity, I have to ASSUME that
homosexuals is what was intended.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:43 am rjschwarz:

The solution is not right or left but waking up. The left is a coalition of different groups. Two specifically (gays and women) are looking at direct confrontation with radical Islam if things continue. Those two groups could easily move the body politic towards pushing back but so far have not.

Push back. Stand up for hard earned rights. There is no excuse, not religious, not cultural, not ethnic, for one group to dominate or intimidate another.

If you don’t push back now it will only grow more difficult. Eventually Europe will fall or will turn somewhat fascist and bloody to handle the problem and I don’t think anyone wants either solution.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:55 am Andrew X:

I hate to put it this way, but I cannot rule out a time when gay Europeans will choose to flee to somewhere where they will be safer… and where might that be, I suppose?

So if 10% of all people are gay and 10% of all immigrants to the US are gay, then it would be in fact wrong to make any issue of that. But if that latter percentage goes up because of these very circumstances, would it be wrong of many Americans to have a problem with that, for the exact same reasons Europeans SHOULD have had a problem with the sheer numbers of Muslim immigrants, for which their failure to do so has led them to this moment? Namely, do we have some sort of obligation to accept large numbers of people whose cultural norms are at odds with us, when we know they will immediately start using freedom to advance those very norms?

More to the point, there is a very good reason not to allow large numbers of such immigrants from fear. And that is that it is not for such people to immigrate, it is for such people to pick up guns and knives and start killing their oppressors. (Haven’t they been advocating this in the third world, from the safety of their couches and occasional picnic-like demonstrations, for decades now?)

And, since they are amost certainly Darwinists, isn’t there an argument to be made that, if they are not able and willing to defend their lives and “culture”, said lives and culture will soon be overrun by the stronger competitor? And Darwin himself would note that if they allow that to happen, it is merely a natural and expected process.

In a nutshell, let’s set aside any anti-gay thinking here because that is not what this is about. It is about chickens coming home to roost, chickens that many of the people hated by the gay political community have been warning about for decades.

And the answer is not to come to the US and to bring their pathologies (political, NOT sexual, let me be clear) with them.

In as few words, they fight for themselves where they stand, right now, or they die, culturally or literally. It is not for us to offer anything else, or the Islamists will in fact succeed in their goals, and do so on the backs of our craven and pathetic unwillingness to confront the world as it is, not as we wanted it to be when we were mere children.

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:05 am tom scott:

I phoned my partner back home in Oslo only to learn that moments earlier he had been confronted at a bus stop by two Muslim youths, one of whom had asked if he was gay, started to pull out a knife, then kicked him as he got on the bus, which had pulled up at just the right moment. If the bus hadn’t come when it did, the encounter could have been much worse. …Alas, it is now very clearly the opposite. The number of reported gay-bashings in Amsterdam now climbs steadily year by year.

And this is exactly why your partner should be reporting it. Even if nothing happens to the perpetrators facts are being compiled which can be used to circumvent the journalists and politicians and bring the facts to the people. Much like the FBI’s UCR demonstrates that the greater number of victims of religious bigotry are Jews and not Muslims. Dig around a bit in that link.

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:10 am Salamantis:

It would appear that gays, as well as Jews, are canaries in the European coal mine, and die first when noxious jihadism seeps in.

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:45 am Tim:

Some Muslim men are violent,insecure,homophobic,misogynistic,neanderthals.The only way to deal with their violent outbursts is to literally defend yourself ,and if necessary,use force and weapons.When innocent victims start kicking these hooligans asses and possibly kill them sorry butts,then the Muslim thugs will understand they can retain backwards thoughts,but acting on it is illegal.Europeans are wimpy pussies!!!

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:45 am BMoon:

One European prophet foresaw the present predicament coming years ago. The hardbitten ex-atheist British journalist Malcolm Muggeridge, who converted late in his life to Christianity, said:

“One of the peculiar sins of the twentieth century which we’ve developed to a very high level is the sin of credulity. It has been said that when human beings stop believing in God they believe in nothing. The truth is much worse: they believe in anything.”

That’s the perfect description of the fatuous credulity of multiculturalism, and perfectly explains why the secularist left, repeating history of a generation ago, have no moral compass on the threat of Islamic fascism. They seem to have a death wish. For them, the only evil is who they really are (or their forefathers.) They are the clueless, ungrateful, self-destructing, inheritors of a democratic liberal tradItion that did not spring from Marx and Darwin, nor even from the secularist Enlightenment, but from the Reformation. Like the grotesquely spoiled heirs of a great magnificent enterprise who have left it in utter ruins, they’ve not only squandered the cultural wealth they inherited but did not create, but they’ve also hated and despised the very precepts that it took to get there. They insanely want the fruit by cutting off the root.

Finally, and let me say this with all gravity and sensitivity possible, it is ironic that gays are some of the first to begin experiencing the loss of true liberal tolerance. In great part, it was they who were at the forefront of taking the axe to the root of that great, magnificent shade tree.

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:50 am Toby A.:

What exactly do you propose be done about this problem? I hear a lot of alarm bells being rung, but the solution is left to the imagination.

I refuse to paint a religious community with one brush. And as someone left of center, I also resent being typecast as soft on all people of color. Crime is crime, from whichever corner.

It’s an inherent danger within democracy, that non-democratic forces can abuse the system. We must be watchful and we must exercise our freedom of expression. But I mistrust those who have a lot of criticism and no positive suggestions.

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:50 am Andrew:

The way this is going Europe will not be a good place to take your summer vacations. We are about a generation away from all of Europe’s great cathedrals being turned into mosques to accommodate the muslim invaders.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:00 am Fred Beloit:

“Heather :

Fortunately, here in the U.S., we have a fundamental right to self defense, up to and including the right to keep and bear arms

Not in Illinois, Wisconsin, or most major cities…

Jan 29, 2008 06:43 AM”

Correct, Heather. But Illinois, Wisconsin, etc, can change this, as, according to the constitution, they should as many other states have. Perhaps in time reason will prevail.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:07 am AlexinCT:

The reason the left remains oblivious or unable to handle this problem is simple: they are not ready to critically analyze their ideological dogmas. The problem is that practically everything that makes up the leftist bible, their true beliefs, commandments, and modus vivendi, falls to pieces when confronted with this new reality. The evil conservative boogiemen - and especially the religious ones -could be reviled, accused of horrible crimes or wanting to commit them, and blamed for all ills, precisely because they would never retaliate or do any of these things. The same is not true of Islam where anyone that has done something as simple as oppose them has basically risked their lives.

As someone here pointed out already, women & gays are amongst the first to become victims of violence sanctioned by Sharia, and yet both remain more “worried” about perceived Christians. It is not difficult to bash these “right winggers” because these leftists know there will be no violence forthcoming. But the same does not apply to Islam. Progressivism is based on some fantasies that work well in Western societies where the risk of violent resistance to these broken and deficient ideas is all but nil. That falls apart when dealing with Sharia.

For the left to agree Islam is a problem, they first have to admit that most of they believe and have forced upon us in the name of progressivism is plain bull. It looks like way too many of them faced with this fact are choosing to keep quiet and endure the coming backlash, in the hopes that somehow it will just go away, rather than reevaluating their cherished beliefs. That’s why so many of them claim that they think that if we but leave these Islamist alone, they will leave us be too. Do not expect people that have to admit they where terribly wrong in what they believed to be able to do that with ease. It will take a lot more of their blood being spilled to wake them up.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:24 am Bonzi:

CaptDMO couldn’t have hit it more direct. We need to continue to use the correct grammatical description(s) and stop trying to ’sugar-coat’ what we really need to say!

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:29 am Akatsukami:

“What exactly do you propose be done about this problem? I hear a lot of alarm bells being rung, but the solution is left to the imagination[…]I mistrust those who have a lot of criticism and no positive suggestions.”

A suggestion: adherence to Islam should be treated in the same as adherence to Nazism.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:29 am Becktemba:

The problem with “multi-culturalism” is that when a minority’s culture comes into conflict with established cultural norms that more the greater society; it has to be dealt with. For example Homosexuals shouldn’t try and redefine the institution of marriage, just as Muslims or any group should not feel free to visit harm and violence upon homosexuals or any other group.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:43 am tanstaafl:

Amsterdam…Nearly half Muslim, the city is a front in the struggle between democracy and sharia, under which, lest it be forgotten, homosexuality can be a capital offense.

I don’t know about reliability of statistics, but, as of now, I believe “nearly half” is off the mark.

The relationship between so called “multiculturalist” thinking and excuses being made for Muslim behaviors and misbehaviors in Europe (and Canada, and Australia) seems straightforward.

The pathologies of Islamism have proved surprisingly contagious among Western √©lites. ~Mark Steyn

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/2007/11/muslim-population-in-european-cities.html

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:50 am Harvey:

No less than the new German pope has been warning for years about the Islamic immigrant “take-over” of Western Europe and the accompanying loss of interest in heavily Christianity-based European history.

His (unworkable) solution is, naturally, a Christian re-awakening in Europe.

While the Pope might not appreciate it, a solid kick in the ass or punch in the nose, literally and figuretively, is almost always the best antidote for any bully in any situation.

Jan 29, 2008 - 8:54 am Jim:

The problem here is not the beliefs of the Muslims. They have a perfect right to view homosexuality as a perversion. This is the view expressed in at least three great religions, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, after all. They have the right to lobby for their viewpoint, to hold office, and all that. But they do not have the right to break the laws of the land, to try to enforce their “Umma” code by mob violence. If Europe can’t protect its citizens from Muslim thugs, then its civilization is surely lost.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:20 am TomkoKubianca:

@Bmoom:

I must say…that was one of the most profound and inspirational posts I’ve read in a long time.

I had to re-read it a few times for it to sink in (I even had to look up a few words that I hadn’t seen in a while), but you sure packed a pretty powerful message.

Thanks for that very thought provoking post!

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:29 am Spacecase:

While we all wish for tolerance and equality, what we have to remember is that there is no compromise with Sharia.
They want all or nothing, and will NOT compromise or bend to accomodate gays or anyone else they consider unacceptable.
In light of this, “right of center” will not work any more than “far-left” has up to now.
It would seem the gay community must alight with the “farther-right”…who would have thought?

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:29 am AloysiusMiller:

When you decide that you need to include everyone don’t be surprised when the including the group that includes no one results in your exclusion.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:42 am Assistant Village Idiot:

“Various” religions, JohnnyL? Otherwise, point taken.

Politicians kick the issue down the road because they do not want a crisis on their watch. That would impede re-election or re-appointment. They may not be so blind, but merely hoping that some other country, some other agency, some other minister, will take the heat.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:46 am Norwegian:

While I agree that the muslim view on homosexuality is horrific, I don¬¥t agree that the gay situation in Oslo is that bad. In general I¬¥d say gays are more visible than ever. And a gay couple walking on Karl Johan will not draw any attention what so ever.

Again, the Muslim view on gays is horrific, but it¬¥s important to remember it¬¥s not shared by native Norwegians, who are still very liberal.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:50 am James:

Being a Catholic I agree with Pope Benedict. I share the Catholic beliefs about homosexuality. However, those beliefs do not include beating or killing homosexuals. In Islamic countries Christians routinely suffer discrimination. Muslims just don’t seem to be able to play nicely with others.

I have visited Europe every year for the last 11 years. Even in that time I have seen changes, for the worse. Security is much higher and it isn’t as safe as it used to be. Europeans need to face up to it. Otherwise they may end up gazing out to sea one day, praying that the Yanks will come once again to save them.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:52 am rjschwarz:

Toby A. :
What exactly do you propose be done about this problem? I hear a lot of alarm bells being rung, but the solution is left to the imagination.

The problem is simple. Prosecute those that break the laws. Do not cave to people because there ways are different or they don’t know any better. If something offends a Muslim then they better learn to lighten up or go to a place that won’t offend so much. It’s not for a society to change for the newcomers, certainly not because of intimidation.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:53 am Josh:

Why don’t you complain to your almighty EU? What are they doing to protect you from Sharia? Nothing? What a suprise. Why do I get the feeling that you Europeans are going to once again expect the U.S. to save your arses from fascist domination? Muslim Sharia will never happen here. Why? Because American citizens are armed to the teeth. I know of a retired Army Major who has the ability to arm 25,000 militia from his home. He is authorizid by the gov’t to manufacture mass quantities of ammunition and there are many others also. You see we understand the realities of evil in the world. You seem to think that by appeasement and tolerance that you can wish it all away. Gay bashing happens everywhere. We have our share. But Sharia law? No way. Wake up Europe. Big daddy America won’t save you from it. You now have the EU to protect you. Good luck.

Jan 29, 2008 - 9:58 am Dark Helmet:

What’s the matter sissy? Truth just more than a drama queen can bear?

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:00 am Curly Smith:

Toby A. asks “What exactly do you propose be done about this problem? I hear a lot of alarm bells being rung, but the solution is left to the imagination.”,

It’s actually pretty simple… you recognize that everyone is equal in the eyes of the law and government. Unfortunately, that view is incompatible with multi-culturalism, affirmative action, Marxism, feminism, both of the major US political parties, and a whole slew of special interests.

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:00 am vortex:

Amsterdam is most certainly not “almost half Muslim.” While it is true that about half of Amsterdam’s population is foreign-born, this number includes many people from Suriname, the Antilles, elsewhere in Europe, etc.

The actual Muslim population of Amsterdam is closer to 20%.

Bruce: consider yourself fact-checked. By a gay man who spent 4 trouble-free years living in Amsterdam.

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:10 am Anthony (Los Angeles):

CaptDMO: At what point did “Gay” become a noun in the English lexicon?

Try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay#Development_of_modern_usage

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:11 am ERS:

To me, a false dichotomy is created when the argument boils down to being a multiculturalist or standing for basic, universal human rights. One can be for the latter, while still being for the former.

Ellen R. Sheeley, Author

“Reclaiming Honor in Jordan”

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:15 am David:

Ordinarily, I distinguish between gays and other minorities on the grounds that homosexuality is a behavior and not a belief, race or ethnicity. In this case, however, I’m with Mr. Bawer– this isn’t merely anti-gay prejudice, it’s imposition of religious beliefs on unwilling people. Now, it’s the gays (and, of course, the Jews and the non-submissive women). We can’t afford to ignore this, because the gays might be first, but they certainly won’t be the last.

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:18 am rvastar:

…most of today’s European leaders still refuse to see it even though it’s right before their eyes.

Don’t think for a second that these so-called “leaders” don’t see the truth of what’s going on. In fact, don’t think for a second that even the most die-hard Leftists don’t see the truth of what’s going on.

The reason the left remains oblivious or unable to handle this problem is simple: they are not ready to critically analyze their ideological dogmas.

You’ve almost hit the nail on the head, AlexinCT.

IMO, the real reason they’re so loathe to speak out against the rising Islamic fundamentalist tide is that they fear being caught in the trap that they’ve used to pummel their political opponents with for the last 50 years: namely, being subject to the shrieking cries of “Racist! Racist! Racist!” from the vast hordes of unrepentant Leftists that will rain down upon them for daring to criticize the sanctified holiness of brown skin. They’re all afraid to be the first ones to stick their necks out because they’ve seen what’s happened to other leftists who actually had enough of a moral compass to speak out against these barbarians (e.g. Fallaci).

IOW, they’re cowards.

Also, it isn’t that they’re not ready to critically analyze their ideological dogmas…it’s that they can’t. Because they’re not ideological dogmas, they’re religious dogmas!

The complete folly of leftist thinking…moral equivalence, multiculturalism, income redistribution, grievance politics, and on and on…has been repudiated over and over and over again, both philosophically and via reasoned analysis of the results of their real-world application. And yet, they remain true believers! Amen, Brother!

For a Leftist, multiculturalism is a tenet of the faith: unchanging and unassailable. It is, quite simply, the Truth. To question it would require questioning the whole leftist religious belief system, which in turn, would require them to have the courage to actually risk the personal/social upheaval that could occur in their lives if they found that they could no longer support those beliefs (e.g. imagine the horrors that would have to occur before someone like a George Clooney would reach a level of cognizant dissonance that would cause him to abandon his leftist beliefs).

And this goes far beyond the problems that are germane to the this thread’s topic. The same thing can be seen occurring in the Democratic primary in the US. The Leftists (i.e. Democrats) have been playing identity/grievance politics for the last 50 years and now the results of that can be clearly seen in the primary, where the Big Mac and Whopper of grievance politics - e.g. women and blacks - are vying against each another in a race to see who’s the biggest victim and, therefore, more deserving of reparation - I mean, nomination.

And it’s only going to get nastier. And whatever the outcome, there are going to be a lot of really pissed off people when it’s over. Such is the well-deserved fate of parties that build their constituencies by hyping up people’s differences and promising everything under the Sun in exchange for votes.

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:23 am Paul:

Question, supra:

At what point did “Gay” become a noun in the English lexicon?

Answer: In the early 1970s.

Under pressure from its native speakers, English incorporates frequent revisions in usage.

It’s a lot to follow, I know. But do make an effort to keep up. After all, this particular change is at least 40 years old! (For more, see any contemporary dictionary.)

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:35 am Deborah:

Bruce Bawer writes an informative and scary look at the (near) future of Europe. I keep wondering if there are any men with backbone left in that part of the world. They need a Churchill or a Thatcher (what a gal!!) to face the truth. They kick people like Hirsi Ali out of The Netherlands out of fear of her stirring up trouble rather than do anything constructive. Bless you Mr. Bawer and your partner. Keep writing. You’ve gotta wake up that continent.

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:45 am Lem:

After driving homophobia into the closet, multiculturalism seeks homophobes to come out thru Islam?

Skin heads may now be covered?

I’m very confused

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:50 am newton:

Back in 1991, after TIME magazine had published a cover story on Multiculturalism, someone wrote to the editor the following: “Behind the banner of Multiculturalism rises the specter of tribalism.”

I don’t remember who wrote it, but he or she deserves a medal. That reader saw the danger long before too many of us did.

Jan 29, 2008 - 11:45 am ic:

I wonder what’d happen to you if someone brought charges against you to the Canadian “Human Rights” Commissions.

http://ezralevant.com/

Jan 29, 2008 - 12:30 pm JD:

Well, well, here we go again. Once again Americans are watching activities in Europe wondering are we going to have to save them from themselves again. And once again we will of course send our youth to protect Western civilization. Mark my words that another Democrat (i.e. leftist) President will convince us to go back. Will we lose over 116,000 in two years as in WW 1 when Wilson sent us? Will it be over 405,000 in four years during WW 2 when FDR sent them?

Europe, for once, can you please get your shit together and solve this problem now without me having to send my kids over there to save your asses?

Jan 29, 2008 - 12:54 pm DoktorNo:

Newton:

“Multiculturalism: this word have a trap of apartheid in itself” (my translation)

Ryszard Kapu≈õci≈Ñski, Polish journalist, author of many books about Third Word (”Eb√®ne”, “Shah of Shahs”, “The Emperor”) had said this.

Hardly a right-winger, he also warned about the dangers of tribalism.

Jan 29, 2008 - 12:57 pm Nora T:

Just curious, is Mayor Job Cohen going to commission a study as to the motivations of termites to eat wood? What in the world? Hello, pickup Quran and muslim dictates from, say Saudi Arabia, read the part about sharia law. There’s your study and your motivation. Now, DO something!

What an insane mayor he must be. Hello? Anyone paying attention? Sharia law is Imposed - there is no debating; no voting. Just beatings, rapes; and then submission or beheading.
USA

Jan 29, 2008 - 1:02 pm Jim C.:

Toby A. wrote, “I refuse to paint a religious community with one brush.”

You feel the same way about Christians (including Catholics), I trust.

CaptDMO wrote, “At what point did ‘Gay’ become a noun in the English lexicon?”

The 70s.

From the OED:

1971 E. MCGIRR No Better Fiend 69 Until the law was changed..there was a ring of roses around the gays, everybody extorting anything they could get.

1974 K. MILLETT Flying (1975) I. 15, I talked at DOB in August, candid, one gay to another.

Jan 29, 2008 - 1:52 pm C. Siegel:

Bravo.

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:27 pm Osloer:

I agree that the muslim population here in Norway have some opinions that are highly disturbing. But we are far from being ruled by sharia law, as the initial post and more so the comments here imply.

Gays have never been as visible in society as they are today, and the “trend” is increasing. Certainly sexual orentation is no trend, but still I¬¥d say gay people are often considered trendy over here. Nobody will even raise and eyebrown if they see a gay couple on the streets. Gays are everywhere from not only showbiz but to national politics and sports.

And frankly I¬¥ve not ever heard anyone complain about this - not even muslims. And even if the muslims started make any fuzz about it I¬¥d find it hard to believe they would gain any support.

No, if muslim gangs attacking gays on the streets is indeed commonplace in Norway, we have a serious problem that need to be adressed. But I doubt it.

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:42 pm amr:

One problem one faces when examining Islam is taqiyya, which essentially means to lie for the sake of Islam. It is defined as the intention is to deceive unbelievers about Islam, for the explicit purpose of assuaging doubts and concerns about Islam and encouraging conversion. When a religion officially allows lying to further its goals, all bets are off since there is no honor as we define it. This is to me is like believing a known, confirmed liar; yet so many want to believe that Islam is a misunderstood, peaceful religion. Once they have their reformation and change the anti-humanitarian tenets of their religion, then and only then can they be trusted as a religion/culture. That is not to say that individuals can not be judged independently, as I have done in the past with my friends from the Middle East. Just as Christianity had to change, we should expect no less from Islam

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:45 pm John Kelly:

Two things are happening in Europe that are not in the USA. One is that Muslim groups are far more plugged into the government agencies and somehow Europeans give far more lea way to Muslims than they do to other religions. In America it is out of line for any religion to claim special rights. We are a bigger and more complex nation than most European nations. We have a wide selection of both ethnic and religious groups.

Most important is that our society appears to be be both faster and more effective in absorbing and socializing minorities — perhaps it is because we are a nation of immigrants and have been at it for a couple hundred years. Secondly, we have very clear walls between secular public life and religious belief which is a protected but a private matter. Additionally, our Muslim population is small (2% nationwide) and from many nations. Among Arab Americans the majority are Christian which helps too. This is further helped by the the fact most of our Muslim immigrants are middle class and well educated — often highly educated professionals. Further, South Asian immigrants are more familiar with Anglo Saxon cultural and legal traditions than other Muslims. Finally, a basic rule of America is “To get along, go along,” meaning a rough tolerance is the expected decorum. Finally, our minorities organizations tend to work together on the theory that an attack on one is implicitly an attack on all. Here in LA an open and flagrant physical attack on a gay would bring down the police on the thugs who did it like a ton of bricks. The one place where the current status of a gays in the USA is different is on the marriage question. The consensus is that gays can have all the rights of marriage under what we call “Civil Union” laws. Most states have then in place. In an odd but very American distinction the title “marriage” is seen as a religious concept, while the legal rights that go with it are secular. We do this to avoid a fight of the meaning of the word “marriage.” Many churches perform gay marriage, many do not, but that is outside American law. This is the general consensus ranging from Howard Dean across the political spectrum to Dick Cheney.

In Scandinavia many of the Muslim immigrants are poor and from nations with deep social and political problems. They are much more difficult to blend socially than most of Muslims who come to America. The long standing status of American women makes it very difficult to enforce extreme customs like arranged marriages and so forth. In American we don’t care if women wear a head scarf or not, but we do not accept the vail. Period. In a generation or two our Muslim women are as touchy about their rights as any other women.

Most Muslim are aware of this and that is why the do not come here. It is also one reason why they hate our country. In Iraq they are now so used seeing our women soldiers that it is having a real if subtile effect on Iraq’s women, who were pretty liberated by Muslim standards anyway.

Jan 29, 2008 - 3:58 pm vortex:

If you’ll excuse a quick reality check here: Mr. Bawer is a U.S. citizen who has chosen to live in Europe, despite this grave threat to his well-being.

Perhaps Mr. Bawer might be so kind as to share why exactly he and his SO have not yet fled the Continent. My own theory, based purely on speculation, is that he chooses to live in Norway because his partner is Norwegian and cannot legally live with him in the U.S., whose immigration laws — unlike Norway’s — prohibit same-sex partner reunification.

Which means Mr. Bawer is one of those who, in Bmoon’s estimation, “taking the axe to the root” of European civilization.

(Not that I expect this comment to be approved.)

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:16 pm JFP:

Toby A: “What exactly do you propose be done about this problem? I hear a lot of alarm bells being rung….”

You’re wrong, Toby A. Very few alarm bells are being rung. I know of very few people who have heard the alarm bells (because the MSM refuses to ring them), and when I tell them what is happening, they just think I’m a wacko. And take a look at the comments of Norwegian and vortex; these are two people who have heard the alarm bells and refuse to give any credence to them.

I don’t know what the point is of offering a solution when society hasn’t yet acknowledged that there is a problem. Getting society to acknowledge a problem should be the first step, and I’d be interested in hearing your solution to that.

But since you ask, my solution would be sensitivity training — about a month of it, at least — for all immigrants, with those who obviously can’t handle the West being sent back home.

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:17 pm Eric R.:

I would ask Mr. Bawer an obvious question — how bad would it have to get in Europe for gays before he would return to America?

I realize that his marriage would be changed to a civil union, recognized only in certain states, but if things are degenerating that quickly in Europe, self-preservation would take precedence.

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:29 pm true wise guy we should have learned about in AMERICAN HISTORY and on TV, and from DC::

Benjamin Franklin, delegate to the Continental Congress, signer of the Declaration, US Minister to England and France, oldest Founding Father:

“History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion…and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others ancient or modern.”

” I have lived a long time, Sir, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that ” except the Lord build the House they labor in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments by human wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest. I therefore beg leave to move- that henceforth prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven, and its blessings on our deliberations, be held in this Assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and hat one or more Clergy of the city be requested to officiate in that service.” - speech to Constitutional Convention, June 28, 1787

“A Bible and a newspaper in every house, a good school in every district- all studied and appreciated as they merit- are the principle of virtue, morality, and civil liberty.”
…

Damn. We traded a priceless, hardwon heritage for a pot of poison PC stew. ):

(please delete… once was blind, now am lost.)

Jan 29, 2008 - 4:56 pm vortex:

EricR - as I indicated above, Mr. Bawer would be forced to leave his partner forever. Under current law, he would not be allowed to immigrate to the U.S. as his partner. Not even to Massachusetts.

The tears being shed here for the plight of European gays — excuse me, gay Europeans — are of the crocodilian variety, because how many of the commenters here would change U.S. immigration policy to recognize same-sex relationships?

*crickets*

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:02 pm Jenn:

In certain neighborhoods of Detroit when I was a kid, gays were routinely jumped by gang-bangers. That changed radically over one summer when gays, perhaps influenced by NY drag queens, starting packing STRAIGHT RAZORS. If these Euro-Gays sprang into an angry Muslim face or two with a flashing razor, the situation will change.

Jan 29, 2008 - 5:12 pm Joe Y:

I think the mistake the gay population makes is to think that the Left wants power to advocate for gay rights, when it is the other way round: Advocating gay rights to get themselves power. The Left will happily continue to ignore the oppression of women, condone the most vicious retrograde sort of jew-hatred, and, yes, leave gays to their fate at the hands of Islam if that will gain them more and more power, which is all the Left truly desires.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:35 pm Steve Skubinna:

The salient fact is not that Muslims are willing to debate on the religious imperative for killing gays. What is horrifying is that the debate is occurring with the enthusiastic participation of Europe’s multiculralists, who somehow believe that they are making progress just by having the resolution on the table.

I suppose that if they set strict quotas for how many gays may be killed per year, and if the Muslims adhere to them, the leftists will cheer the triumph of reason and understanding.

And Vortex, kudos to you on your fine display of moral equivalence, tying in same sex marriage with murder. You’re right, those of us who do mot support same sex marriage are complicit. Way to stand up for your culture.

Jan 29, 2008 - 6:48 pm Jay Kactuz:

The problem is, as always, is that people are not honest. They have two sets of standards - one for the West and one for Islam (Actually, no standards there!)

When I say mean ‘people’ I mean Muslims - and us, or at least our leaders in politics, acedemia and the media.

We can’t just blame the Muslims. Yes, they bring hate and violence to the table, but we serve up ignorance and self-deception.

I have studied Islam for three years and the news is not good. More than anything, Muslims want to take away our liberties, starting with our freedom of speech. Everywhere Islam dominates, liberties are restricted - or non-existant.

http://www.kactuzkid.com/liberty.html

In 1968, an unorthodox and very independent English politician and intellectual named Enoch Powell made a very controversial speech in which he warned the country of the consequences of continued unchecked immigration. Because of its allusion to Virgil’s saying in ancient Roman literature that the Tiber river would foam with blood, Powell’s warning was dubbed the “Rivers of Blood speech” by the press. The next day he was sacked from his cabinet position and never held another senior political post.

British leaders and intellectuals said no such thing would ever happen. They said Powell was a racist and an ignorant fool.

Fast forward 40 years. We are in trouble. Tens of millions of Muslims are living in Western nations because our nations have allowed tens of millions of Muslims to enter - people with which we share nothing in common. Their values are not our values. They do not understand our freedoms and do not respect our institutions. They follow a religion of hate and anger. They love a man who - according to their own sacred writings - attacked, plundered, enslaved, tortured, raped and murdered to conquer and dominate.

The worse thing is that Muslims are not honest; they cannot be honest. Always!

http://www.kactuzkid.com/lies.html

Muslims want to live in the West, but not be part of the West. They want our liberties and prosperity, but do not accept the essential elements that generate that prosperity and guarantee that liberty. They lie about their religion and their attitudes. They tell us they believe in freedom and equality then say “Praise be unto him” after the name of a man that murdered his critics and enslaved his opponents. They say they condemn terror and then go back to the mosques and listen to the sermons demonizing their neighbors.

When one of them goes out to kill infidels, they just shrug and say they were not ‘real’ Muslims.

Things will get worse — believe me, I know. The future will not be nice.

Kactuz

http://www.kactuzkid.com

Jan 29, 2008 - 7:49 pm Chris Baker:

Here in the USA, we have one thing that most European nations don’t have. It’s called the right to keep and bear arms. While Europe disarms peaceful citizens and renders them defenseless, a gay person in American can go out and buy a gun. There is even a group called the Pink Pistols–”Armed gays don’t get bashed.”

Jan 29, 2008 - 10:32 pm syn:

So long as there are those ‘Jewish Lesbians for Palestine’ or ‘Queers for Palestine’ or those who believe ‘Ahmadinejad is bad BUT Bush is worse’ defending the state of Islam there is not much anyone can do about this situation.

What will Progressive Leftist do to end their unholy alliance with Islamicfascists; the alliance may have worked well against Bush but how’s it working for freedom?

I bet the big bite in the ass is really hurting just about now.

Jan 30, 2008 - 4:20 am Mark William Paules:

Sharia cannot exist side-by-side with European liberal traditions. No accommodation is possible as long as moderate Muslims remain mute. Silence amounts to a tacit acceptance of sharia as the way of the future. Do moderate Muslims who enjoy the fruits of modernity really want to turn back the clock? If so, the choice for Europeans is either to fight or submit. A grim prospect either way for a populace that has succumbed to socialist decadence.

Young men will fight for status if they cannot otherwise find it through personal achievement. Life on the dole for young Muslims provides fertile ground for a generation that will seize what they cannot otherwise earn for themselves. Criminality and violence will follow as surely as night follows day. Socialism does not provide an answer. How are young men supposed to find a vested interest in a society that offers bread, but no chance for a meaningful life? Islam offers meaning if only in a chance to lash back with nihilism.

In the past Europeans have confronted crisis with some form of Fascism. The rise of far right-wing parties should come as no surprise. The irony is that Europe’s passive and coddled population will be caught between two mutually incompatible ideologies. It’s time to choose sides. So, what’s it going to be? Confrontation or submission? There is no middle ground.

Jan 30, 2008 - 5:47 am jake:

It should probably be put in to context that despite a rise of acts of violence Oslo is still one of the ten safest cities in the world. Norway is still one of the safest countries to be openly gay and this problem has to be viewed as, although serious, relatively minor.

Multiculturalism definitely has its downsides but assimilation takes time no matter how you do it. I feel the language in this article is a bit over the top, and the comments are blowing this problem out of proportion.

Jan 30, 2008 - 6:14 am syn:

Oh goody, Jake said it’s no big deal so why should I care about ’serious, relatively minor’(moral relativism at its finest) problems being blown out of proportion.

I disagree however, it appears that assimilating ’submit or die’ won’t take much time since it is perceived as a non-problem being blown out of proportion.

Jan 30, 2008 - 6:55 am Lars:

It should be noted that any prosecution of the crime would in any likelihood have resulted in a light sentence. Scandinavia is notorious for its foftness on violent crime. In Denmark the average sentence for violent assault is under one year. And murder only gets you an average of sixteen year. And the right to keep and bear arms is of course nonexistent. Our jury system is a sham, and the citizen speaking against Muslim violence is liable to prosecution under the hate speech law (Penal Code S.266b) which forbids the publication of even truthful statements likely to be perceived as threatening, insulting or degrading to a group of persons on the ground of inter alia race, color or religion.

Jan 30, 2008 - 7:12 am Spacecase:

Unfortunately, multiculturalism suffers from 2 fatal flaws. In the first place, it is based on a false premise: that all cultures will embrace it with equal zeal and respect for the others, which is clearly and historically a utopic dream with no hope of ever being realized.

And secondly, like other movements, it has been hijacked by the “hate the western man” crowd so that its true original meaning and intent has now been distorted and perverted into a western-bashing charade utilized by non-westerners for the sole purpose of gaining special treatment to the detriment of the rest of the people.

Clearly yet one more good idea perverted into a travesty.

Jan 30, 2008 - 7:33 am Isaac:

Have you seen the movie “Children of Men”? Forgot the main topic and pay attention to the secondary story being told about Europe.

Anyway, this is post modernism at it’s worst or should I say the fruit of it. I’m Christian and no way feel anyone has the right to physically hurt, keep jobs from, or not to sell to gays but I strongly appose the view that homosexuality is “normal” or “ok”.

I’ve had countless conversations with homosexuals and have made my point without insulting anyone but the point stands regardless.

Truth is NOT relative, it’s an illogical view that does not hold up to any serious examination, so what is the truth about all of this?

Homosexuality is immoral as is the murder, rape, and abuse that these Muslim youths are committing. But, they are following their teachings so it begs the question…are all religions equal? NO…one of them is the true faith and all others false.

I know that sounds arrogant and ignorant to those prostituted to the post modern ideals but again their viewpoint is illogical if they ever took the time to look into their claims.

There is no true freedom in this world, or else you would not complain if the Muslim people in your nations grew larger and voted you right out of the nation (basically). Is that not freedom? The people choose, well…then learn a very important lesson.

These people are using our own freedom against us and to stand up against it is to admit something about what true freedom means to the men (as in humanity) of this world.

I’ll end by saying, the common theme that brought down countless super nations of the past (Rome, South American Indian nations, Babylon, etc) is moral depravity and it’s THIS that those who appose homosexuality are trying to avoid for their nations but right now Europe has hung itself with its’ own rope and you ask why?

Those that kill to force a viewpoint are as immoral as those who preach that homosexuality is OK and normal.

That’s why, for the Christian…we can vote and if we lose so be it, but do not complain that we use our right to vote to counter your right to vote. Nor complain about the situation while winking at abortion, the view as children as a liability (I am a father), and irresponsible immigration rules that your post modern views all support.

Wake up friends across the pond, your nations are being pulled right under your feet.

You reap what you sow…

Jan 30, 2008 - 7:49 am JFP:

Dear Jake:

I appreciate that you are willing to regard this as a serious, even if minor, problem. And you are right to put things in context. Nevertheless, here are my concerns.

1. The problem is getting worse, not better. More immigrants stream in, and their birth rate is higher than that of native Europeans.

2. The problem is understated. I assume the worst abuses happen where Muslims and whites live near each other. But those whites are likely to be poor, and the dominant culture pays no attention to what poor whites say.

3. Most of the time, anyone who talks about this problem is shouted down as a racist.

4. There is no assimilation because the dominant culture doesn’t encourage it and because Muslim enclaves, especially with satellite tv, allow people to remain within their own cultures.

5. The threats of violence ensure that many people remain silent.

6. Native Europeans who are fed up with the situation are leaving, thus slowly tilting the balance of the population in the Muslims’ favor.

Maybe you have some good news to relate that counters these trends. For example, I’d like to hear about moderate Muslims making threats against traditional Muslims. But the only threats I’ve heard about go the other way.

Jan 30, 2008 - 7:53 am vortex:

Steve: way to totally misunderstand my point.

Bruce is forced to live in Norway because he can’t legally live in the U.S. with his partner. His only two options are: (1) stay in “dangerous” Norway; or (2) abandon his life partner. This is a choice that has been forced on him by U.S. policy. What would you do in his situation?

syn: Speaking of blowing things out of proportion, let’s not forget the image of the Islamic crescent rising over the Tour Eiffel, not to mention Bruce’s blatantly misleading statement about Amsterdam’s Muslim population. Let’s all accept that there’s a threat, but these ridiculous exaggerations make it impossible to take Bruce’s dire warnings seriously.

And one more thing: If the existence of clubs for gay Arabs in Amsterdam and Paris is any indication, quite a few of those scary Muslims are, in fact, gay themselves.

Jan 30, 2008 - 7:54 am Pedro Gomez:

But,.. But,.. But,.. Islam is a religion of peace!! How can this be?? Yes,.. it is the gays and infidel’s fault!! They instigate those peaceful people of Islam.

BWAAAAHAHHAHAAA!

Only and idiot liberal would believe that!

Jan 30, 2008 - 9:02 am Larry:

There are other countries other than the US and Europe, you know. Canada, New Zealand, Australia, for example.

I’ve read that a lot of Europeans are emigrating to New Zealand. Given the failure of European governments to protect their own citizens from violence, that is to be expected. And it writes the death sentence for Europe, draining away those with gumption and sense. Who will be left to defend Europe, even if Europe’s leaders are finally forced to deal with reality.

Europe’s problem Muslims are typically not immigrants, but the children of immigrants. European citizens by birth. You can’t “deport” them, the correct word is banishment.

Jan 30, 2008 - 1:42 pm chuck,:

We are like doctors staring at the same x-ray over and over again. There’s a tumor there… …Yep. I concur. There sure is…it’s a beaut…. What do you think, Dr? ….That’s the mother of all tumors, that’s what I think….

St Reagan, forgive me, but the only ones who with the stomach to do what needs to be done are the Russians.

Jan 30, 2008 - 3:26 pm Charles:

It’s a shame you europeans have allowed yourselves to become subjugated to the point where effective self defense is no longer allowed, and an organization like the Pink Pistols could do you no good.

Jan 30, 2008 - 3:56 pm venividivici:

Seems like most have missed the import of the “First they came for the…” idea. All of you, even those of you who think this is all “no big deal”, are on the Muslims’ hit list. They just haven’t gotten to you yet. Didn’t the Marxists used to say, “Tell me what you own and I’ll tell you what your politics are”? Now it’s, “Tell me how much about Islam’s historical treatment of non-Muslims you’ve studied, and I’ll tell you what your attitude toward Islam is”. One simply cannot possibly engage in serious, non-conflicted (by money or ideology)study of Islam as a non-Muslim and want to share the same planet with these people.

For people who believe that some Muslims have gotten “used to” the fruits of modern society and don’t want to “turn back the clock”, I have news for you: Muslims in general don’t really have any idea how modern society came about. A Muslim believer thinks that everything that happens is Allah’s will. Do you think they understand that television (to take a superficial example) was the culmination of decades of theoretical and practical scientific work? Even things Muslims WANT to do in the sciences, like develop nuclear weapons, they need to steal from the West because they haven’t got a clue how real science works. If the typical Muslim woke up tomorrow and found himself in the 7th century, I don’t think he’d mind a bit. It’d actually make it easier to be a “good Muslim”, which would increase his chances of going to Muslim heaven, making the 7th century an improvement for him. So you die a little bit younger, who cares when you’ve got the chance for an eternity of sensual delights? For them, material regression isn’t a thing to be feared, it’s a way to increase the chances of winning the Muslim version of Pascal’s Wager.

Jan 30, 2008 - 4:58 pm David Thomson:

“For them, material regression isn’t a thing to be feared, it’s a way to increase the chances of winning the Muslim version of Pascal’s Wager.”

Wow, this post of “venividivici” is superb. I am so impressed that I am going to permanently book mark it. You might want to consider doing likewise.

Jan 30, 2008 - 10:42 pm Noah:

“How can you expect the French worker who works along with his wife and who together earn 15000 francs and who sees on the landing of his apartment block, piled up, a family with a father, 3 or 4 wives, 20 or so kids, who get 50000 francs a month in social welfare - of course without working! And if you add to that the noise and the smell, well, the French worker on his landing goes crazy! And it’s not racist to say that.”
Jacques Chirac, election speech, 1990

Jan 30, 2008 - 10:56 pm Norwegian:

“Given the failure of European governments to protect their own citizens from violence, that is to be expected. ”

Really? Last time I checked we had some of the lowest punishments for violent crime in the world. And, guess what, last time I checked we had some pretty strict gun laws, not even police officers wear guns. But, wait a second, last time I checked we also had one of the lowest crime rates in the whole wide world. Inability to protect its citizens, you say?
I don¬¥t think so.

Jan 30, 2008 - 11:12 pm Teplost:

Vinividividi’s post is very interesting. Much of what he says also applied to the old Soviet Union. They didn’t get that an open society, with material incentives, intellectual freedom, and an entrepreneurial economy are the necessary environment for scientific and technological development. Hence, they just kept coming back to the West to catch up on the latest developments, they did very little on their own. They also didn’t have a clue how science works.

Jan 31, 2008 - 5:41 am Bob1:

I think there’s something else in play here. The Left has long denigrated the role of religion in Western civilization; the secular is their ideal. Therefore, because they believe religion should have no power in modern society, they are blind to the religious power that underpins Islam. This is, IMO, a large blind spot in the Left’s world view.

Jan 31, 2008 - 7:56 am Randy:

Excellent and informative article. I have a different moral compass concerning homosexuality but I stand with you in agreement on this article.

Jan 31, 2008 - 8:34 am FFT:

This Islamic menace is global.

Just recently, two prominent Malaysian Muslim bloggers who head the Malaysian Muslim Bloggers Alliance went on record, on their own video, suggesting that non-Muslim Malaysians should be tattooed just like Hitler did to the Jews of Nazi Germany.

The related link and context are available here:

http://www.malaysia-today.net/2008/content/view/2102/46

Sickening!

Jan 31, 2008 - 11:36 am davod:

Bruce:

There has also been an increas in the number of male to female rapes. What is not reported is that, in the main, the rapists are Muslim and the raped are non Muslim.

Jan 31, 2008 - 3:10 pm Mark William Paules:

Vx3 is erudite, but his insight is somewhat lacking when he infers that Islam is a monolithic force for conquest. The Umma is fractured along numerous fault lines: doctrinal, ethnic, racial, linguistic and regional to name a few. U.S. success in Iraq and Afghanistan has been due largely to our ability to “split the difference” and recruit factional allies. And to assume that Muslims don’t appreciate the fruits of modernity is just flat out wrong. A million Arabs (Muslim, Christian and Druze) enjoy unparalled freedom and prosperity within the borders of Israel. Muslims generally do accomodate in time. To assume otherwise paints all Muslims with a rather broad brush. We face today a particularly virulent form of Islam with deep roots, but Wahabism (aka Salafism) is still a minority sect. Moderate Muslims must rally to the banner of modernity or face the tyranny of a dark past. It’s a choice. Moderate Muslims need to speak out in public. To date only radicals get press coverage. We see the worst without really knowing the best. Last call for peace, anyone? I for one will fight for the culture of the west if it comes to that. Thank God I have the means. Talk now or forever hold thy peace, oh Islam. Europe is decadent, but America is loaded for bear.

Jan 31, 2008 - 6:27 pm venividivici:

Mark,

I would take issue with your statement about what I’m inferring. On a theoretical level, those fault lines certainly exist and I definitely see them. Hugh Fitzgerald on Jihad Watch has lots to say on how these can be exploited, but on a practical level, Islam per se provides a level of cohesiveness that enables Muslims to act in a manner akin to Spengler’s “beast with many hands and one head”. Muslims are probably much more homogenous than Westerners are, in many respects, and it’s much more difficult to split them, because the typical appeals to those categories that work with Westerners, class, sex and race, don’t work as well because they are subsumed under the category “Muslim”. Again, these are people who are convinced there is an afterlife and this belief colors their actions in this world.

We face today a particularly virulent form of Islam with deep roots, but Wahabism (aka Salafism) is still a minority sect.

Wahabbism is indeed a minority sect, but it has the wind at its back, with Saudi money funding its expansion to areas where the local tolerant version of Islam had reigned. And don’t forget that Amahdinejad was just recently invited to Saudi Arabia during the hajj, which was the first time a Shiite had that honor, if I remember correctly. There is enough Islamic doctrine that holds steady across even the Sunni-Shiite divide that enables Muslims to unite against “the infidel”.

Another consideration is that the way Muslims propose to “paper over” these fissures is by conquering us. I know, it all seems so “rag tag” today because Muslims are so backward.

Muslims generally do accomodate in time.

Then please explain why second and third generation European Muslims are more radical than their parents and grandparents? I’m pretty sure that trend is indicative of Muslim attitudes toward modernity and assimilation, and I stand by that statement I made about the relationship of Muslims to material progress/regress. A few million Muslims in Israel notwithstanding. Of course, I’d love good survey data directly addressing this question, but my current conclusion is that I’m analyzing this issue correctly.

Jan 31, 2008 - 9:03 pm Mark William Paules:

Vx3, your last point is crucial. Why indeed do second and third generation Muslims foresake modernity where their elders otherwise made accommodation? What we see is a demographic timebomb of Muslim youths who have been marginalized and ghettoized by the host nations. Life on the dole, and this is true of all such populations including inner city black youth in America, have no vested interest in society at large, nor status in the community. To gain standing they instead become outlaws, drifting into a criminal subculture where they do achieve recognition of a sort. Both radical Islam and American gang/drug culture serve the same need. There’s a good article on this trend by a Danish sociologist (his name escapes me at the moment) at Gates of Vienna. His point is that in any society where young men lack status, they will fight. If necessary in the cause of nihilism, which is what we see when the suburbs of Paris burn.

American Muslims have been quiescent through the currenct turmoil because America offers all immigrants genuine opportunity. Vested interest based on genuine achievement negates alienation and removes the reason to lash out. But socialism only excerbates the problem by marginalizing immigrant populations. It offers bread and a roof over one’s head, but it cannot give a man status based on achievement. Many people continue to address the question on ideological grounds without looking at the sociology. Both are part of the explanation. And I have known too many secular Muslims to believe that radical Islam is any sort of siren call to a worldwide community of believers. I can only hope that I’m right, of course. Only time will tell.

Feb 1, 2008 - 6:37 am penny:

The really sad part to this is the number of gay men here in denial. They cling like barnacles to the belief against all empirical evidence that their safety is more threatened by the Christian right. Another folly of our times. Of course, when 24/7 the media feeds you that meme and you never venture from your self-reinforcing coterie of like minded liberal friends who feel the same way, then, you stay uninformed and stuck on stupid.

Oh, and, count on election day for gays overwhelmingly to vote for Hillary or Obama, our answer to European lefty appeasers.

Feb 1, 2008 - 8:46 am Subject Of The King:

Agents Of Intolerance

Okay, let’s think this thru.

The sodomites contend that tolerance is the key to acceptance.

Tolerance as I understand it, means that we should not judge another according to ones own moral code.

You know, be tolerant of their lifestyle.

Is it not in the name of tolerance that Islam has made inroads into Europe?

So are the sodomites now preaching intolerance?

Feb 1, 2008 - 11:00 am Steve:

Bawer is clearly and concisely identifying a problem that exists in Europe. Part of his frustration is that many Europeans refuse to stand up for what is right because they don’t want to be called racist. We can see the exact same problem and lack of critical thinking with comments to the article. Some posters are so threatened by any real life problems that exist when generous Europeans allow foreigners with very different values to go to their country, settle in their countries, then try to make the country like the one they left.

Cultural sensitivity is a two-way street. Multiculturalism requires that all cultures tolerate and treat with respect the other cultures in the society. It is amazing to see how outraged the ultra-left becomes when real problems requiring real solutions are addressed. They refuse to acknowledge the problem. The degree of denial is shocking.

Feb 1, 2008 - 2:42 pm vortex:

Again: no one is refusing to acknowledge the problem. Bruce and the rest of you are, however, failing to acknowledge at least one gross exaggeration in the article, namely the bit about Amsterdam’s population being “nearly half Muslim.”

So much for the vaunted commitment to accuracy and truthiness in the New Media!

On another note: has anyone conclusively proven that all those young Muslim thugs are beating up gay men because of Islam, or because of general thuggishness? Gay-bashings happen in the U.S. all the time; yet for some reason the religion of the bashers is not usually considered relevant. Likewise with the so-called “French intifada.” Many of the participants, being from sub-Saharan Africa, aren’t Muslim. Yet the car-burnings are invariably couched (at least by those with the most to gain by fomenting hatred of Muslims) in religious rather than socio-political terms. As if Muslims were the only ones having trouble dealing with French society.

The degree of post-hoc thinking is shocking.

Feb 1, 2008 - 3:18 pm En Svensk Tiger. Inte mer!:

This discussion wouldn’t occur if the main stream media in europe did their job. Instead, like in Sweden; The media is mainly controlled by a majority of leftwing journalists. These journalists see no evil, hear no evil and thus speak no evil about the consecvence of the massimmigration. My main reasoons against this massimmigration are threefold:

1) It’s my taxmoney that is used. The yearly cost is bigger than the Swedish yearly defence budget!

2) I’m against the massimmigratiions impact on the Swedish soceiety; Less freedom of speech, comming future changes of law, …

3) In a democracy decisions that have a big impact on soceiety should have the concent of the people. Nobody has asked me or my fellow citizen about yes/no to the massimigration we have right now (Sweden received 50% of all iraki “refuges” that came to europe).

P.S. It’s irony that the massimmigration will cause that thoose who most advocate this “tolerance” will be the first to be “hanged” from it. There might be some kind of twisted justice after all.

Feb 2, 2008 - 6:29 am jeff:

disgusting. I am not gay, but have some gay friends. Tolerance is something that can be taught. It is far easier to be intolerant.

In Minnesota, cab drivers try to enforce sharia law on their passengers (won’t ferry alcohol or pork)

They must be stopped. Their strategy is like “Invasion of the Body Snatchers”. They corrupt from within. Gays first, then the Jews.

Feb 2, 2008 - 8:04 am venividivici:

What we see is a demographic timebomb of Muslim youths who have been marginalized and ghettoized by the host nations.

This hypothesis doesn’t jibe with the finding that jihadists tend to be better educated and wealthier than the typical Muslim. Why is it so difficult for people to accept that Islam is the root cause of these people’s ideology? Is it really so difficult to believe that out of the thousands and thousands of religions in the world, a few of them have at their core a doctrine of violence toward non-believers? It defies logic and human nature to suggest that it is impossible that Islam itself is the cause of terrorist activities among Muslims. Especially when Islam is a totalitarian doctrine that informs all of a Muslim’s actions. If Europe were rolling out a red carpet to Muslims, they’d still pursue dominance over non-believers.

You remember this poll: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/05/poll_a_quarter_.html

The idea that America somehow has a unique exemption from the Islamic doctrine that Muslims must be the dominant political power in any state in which they reside is hubris. I love America more than the average American (I should, I’ve had the best education possible and have had every success I’ve ever wanted in the job market) and I don’t think that we will escape the Muslim Menace at the rate we’re going.

vortex,

OK, so just fast forward a few years to the point in time when half of Amsterdam’s population is EXACTLY 50% of the total city population. Do you anticipate that Bawer’s point will not be valid at that time? Why you are harping on a relatively minor point in the article is beyond me and doesn’t invalidate any of the conclusions being drawn about how, to paraphrase Hugh Fitzgerald’s phrase, the presence of Muslims in the West makes life more physically dangerous for the natives. The “tipping point” appears to be lower than 50%, anyway, so insisting that 50% is some kind of magical number is missing the point.

Gay-bashings happen in the U.S. all the time; yet for some reason the religion of the bashers is not usually considered relevant.

That’s because for most Westerners, religion doesn’t play the same role in informing day-to-day actions as it does for Muslims. Islam, doctrinally, claims the authority to dictate ALL of a Muslim’s actions and Muslims are obligated by this claim. Thus, the relevance of the religion of Muslim gay-bashers is justified by the claims of Islam itself, which is more of a legalistic system of governance than a religion.

Likewise with the so-called “French intifada.” Many of the participants, being from sub-Saharan Africa, aren’t Muslim. Yet the car-burnings are invariably couched (at least by those with the most to gain by fomenting hatred of Muslims) in religious rather than socio-political terms.

Link, please. This is a bold claim and needs to be backed up. Given the media’s tendency to downplay Islam as the root cause of these maniacal rampages, I doubt that if this were true, it wouldn’t have been broadcast far and wide.

And just for the record, I have nothing “to gain” from pointing out that Islam tout court is incompatible with my understanding of Western civilization and Western mores. But, point it out I must because I, for one, LOVE Western civilization and Western mores and I’ll be damned if I’m going to let ANYONE get in the way of me living my life in accordance with them. As I’ve said before, I’d kill my own mother if she were somehow abetting Islam’s attempt at establishing itself as the predominant power in Western lands. (If you’re reading this, sorry Mom!)

Feb 2, 2008 - 1:07 pm Eric R.:

Vortex said (three days ago):

EricR - as I indicated above, Mr. Bawer would be forced to leave his partner forever. Under current law, he would not be allowed to immigrate to the U.S. as his partner. Not even to Massachusetts.

You (and Mr. Bawer) may have to face the fact that you have two choices here — a bad one and a worse one. Stay in Europe and be “forced back into the closet” (if that is possible now, given that his marriage is now public record) or worse, or come to America, and fight to keep his partner here.

His partner could try and try to gain asylum status, being a refugee from Islamophobic persecution. While this admittedly is normally a subject to which our leftish media would normally be sympathetic, in reality, he is likely to gain little publicity or sympathy, since our media, like Europe’s, is more afraid of getting their heads chopped off by Jihadists than by defending gays who will not resort to violence.

Feb 2, 2008 - 1:55 pm JFP:

vortex writes, “Again: no one is refusing to acknowledge the problem.” Actually, many are refusing to acknowledge the problem, such as just about everyone in the MSM and academia.

vortex also raises a point about the French intifada, about its participants including non-Muslims. This may be true. To find out, I’ve asked on several different lists whose cars are being torched, but no one has answered so far. If the cars mostly belong to non-Muslims, I think we can say this is something related to religion and not class.

Finally, let me add a concern to the six concerns I listed above:
7. The stakes here are so high that it is better to take this very seriously than to ignore it and be very sorry later on. If we lose Western civilization, it will essentially be gone forever, and that includes secular society, feminism and gay liberation.

Feb 2, 2008 - 2:01 pm Chip:

Now for the bad news: “Wahhabism” is just Quran-thumping literalism. It’s becoming more popular all over the world.

vortex,

Why don’t you find one accepted Muslim source on sharia law, any legal text or any sheikh, mufti, or ayatollah which doesn’t advocate creative ways to execute gay people. Just one.

I could dig up Quaradawi (the most influential Sunni cleric in the world) saying gays should be killed in the worst ways possible if you’d like to see it. He’s the moderate hope for Islam according to Red Ken. Sir Icky said the same thing.

It’s depressing how ingorance persists seven years after 9/11/01.

Feb 2, 2008 - 4:19 pm Gayman:

To subject of the king.

This “sodomite” finds your reference as such extremely offensive,your parallels ignorant and your arrogance childish.

You must learn to join in responsible adult debate without resorting to demonstration of your obvious prejudices.

I hope that you are not ever subject to the evils of prejudice that you so clearly relish.

Feb 2, 2008 - 4:59 pm Chip:

I really need to start proofreading before clicking the buttons.

Here’s Qaradawi on a typical rant. Who knew there was a Gay ME blog? He/she/they must be fast runners.

Quote (there’s lots more if you click the link):

“A homosexual should be given] the same punishment as any sexual pervert - the same as the fornicator…The schools of thought disagree about the punishment. Some say they should be punished like fornicators, and then we distinguish between married and unmarried men, and between married and unmarried women. Some say both should be punished the same way. Some say we should throw them from a high place, like God did with the people of Sodom. Some say we should burn them, and so on. There is disagreement…The important thing is to treat this act as a crime.”

http://gaymiddleeast.blogspot.com/2006/06/qaradawi-so-many-ways-to-kill-gays-i.html

Qaradawi received exactly 0 reproaches from other Muslim clerics for this view because it’s undisputed in Islam.

Feb 2, 2008 - 7:18 pm Subject Of The King:

To Sodomite,

I disagree with your premise.

I see clearly that you are morally against violence perpetrated against sodomites.

I see this is a moral issue for you. Obviously you believe that violence is immoral or wrong.

The young Muslims feel it is their moral duty to discipline what they consider open perversion. I just wonder why you believe that the young Muslims should adhere to your moral code.

Especially considering that you believe that no one has the right to force his or her moral beliefs on you?

Feb 2, 2008 - 7:30 pm Chip:

Subject of the King,

I have to hand it to you. Not many people go all out arguing for a Hobbsian/sociopathic state of nature.

But I always keep lots of ammo handy because I know you’re out there.

Feb 2, 2008 - 10:40 pm Subject Of The King:

Hobbsian? Well sort of, there were some real issues with supply and return. I do believe man should submit to a sovereign authority but that authority is not government and one should never accept corruption as a means to an end. I would relish a government that recognized and was directed by said Sovereign.

Sociopathic? Well some would contend that taking ones supposedly private behavior and demanding affirmation from the public utilizing marketing schemes, as manipulation is sociopathic.

Regarding the concern for my well-being, “I hope that you are not ever subject to the evils of prejudice that you so clearly relish” Statements like the above expressed concern come from a victim point of view. As a man I do not look to society for protection. I will meet such head on.

I feel that you are being intolerant. If you intend to deny that wanting the young Muslims to change their behavior on the behalf of those they are beating is not intolerance, you are in denial. Simply, you will not tolerate their behavior. Duh?

You are arguing from a premise that the sodomite sets the standards of what is acceptable or not, which is not true tolerance in fact it is prejudice.

You have decried a standard (tolerance) by which you refuse to live.

Feb 3, 2008 - 8:27 am Subject Of The King:

Incidentally, where in any of these posts have I condoned the behavior (Muslim)?

Both sodomite and chip have accused me of being in support of such.

You would appear so much more intelligent if you answer the issue instead of attacking me personally.

Feb 3, 2008 - 8:47 am Subject Of The King:

Correction, double negative.

I feel that you are being intolerant. If you deny that wanting the young Muslims to change their behavior on the behalf of those they are beating is intolerance, you are in denial. Simply, you will not tolerate their behavior.

The above is the corrected statement.

Feb 3, 2008 - 3:53 pm AndyA:

I’ve just read two stories this morning. One was how here in the UK Muslim men’s four - yes four - wives will now have some recognition, whereas this country’s law permits one wife. The second is that female Muslim trainee nurses and other medics are refusing to scrub up properly because they risk bearing their forearms. Oh, diddums!

New rules have been introduced in an effort to reduce hospital-acquired infections (although why we didn’t have sensible rules since Florence Nightingale goodness knows!), and these require thorough scrubbing, including the forearms.

Would you be in a hospital while a Muslim nurse is training there? I for one would feel distinctly uncomfortable about it.

There’s also a row going on in Oxford at the moment: Muslims there are seeking permission to broadcast via loudspeaker the three-minute caterwauling that is their call to prayer three times a day over the city’s famous dreaming spires.

A lot of us here are getting thoroughly pissed off.

Feb 4, 2008 - 2:10 am vortex:

Subject: where your moral equivalency falls apart is in the comparison of anti-gay violence — which has victims, and private sexual behavior — which does not.

And since you brought up the topic of theocracy, perhaps you’d be so kind as to enlighten us as to how we “sodomites” would fare in your “government that recognized and was directed by said Sovereign” (by which I assume you mean a deity, as opposed to a human potentate). In what way would this differ from the shari’a with which Europe is allegedly threatened?

Feb 4, 2008 - 12:35 pm Gerard Kroode:

Is gay bashing a Muslim thing in Europe or a Mediterranean immigrant thing?

Have you ever been threatened by Indians or Indonesians in Amsterdam? There are plenty Indonesian and Indian immigrants there; even if you may have mistaken the Indians for hindus (Most muslims in the world are from Indonesia, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan.). Or even Turkish ?

You do not give any evidence that gay bashing is done for religious reasons. The notorious, and only, fundamentalist killer in Amsterdam, Mohammed Bouyeri, was a quiet and disciplined man. Rowdy and agressive North Africans in the streets, however, do everything which god has forbidden. They are Muslims just in name. It is a joke to assert that these people feel like enforcing sharia law. You can do better than just stateing that “Such men need not be actively religious in order to feel that they have carte blanche to assault”. It is simply unrelated. They are agressive and like to beat somebody up. Their parents? You know that they often are from the backest of backwaters in Morocco. Maybe that has something to do with it, instead of islam ?

So, “In AMsterdam, in the late 1990s, “you were “delightfully surprised to discover that when groups of straight teenage boys passed gay couples in the streets, they just walked past without any reaction whatsoever”. That is good. The biggest muslim immigration had already taken place, and the first riots also.

Btw. there are no sharia rules applied in Amsterdam which go against regular Dutch law. You must think like Lenin, that repeating a lie often enough, will make it a truth. Actually, in the end, you may be right there. I think you are winning already.

Can you give your readers the link, where they can read that a Dutch major (Cohen) wishes to allow male Muslim residents to oppress their wives, sisters, and daughters ? That would mean the end of his career, and, if the thing is true, that would be better for all of us. I shall be going after that.

Mar 30, 2008 - 1:44 pm Gerard Kroode:

Is gay bashing a Muslim thing in Europe or a Mediterranean immigrant thing?

You do not give any evidence that gay bashing is done for religious reasons. The notorious, and only, fundamentalist killer in Amsterdam, Mohammed Bouyeri, was a quiet and disciplined man. Rowdy and agressive North Africans in the streets, however, do everything which Allah has forbidden. They are Muslims just in name. It is a joke to assert that these people feel like enforcing sharia law. You should do better than just trying to state that “Such men need not be actively religious in order to feel that they have carte blanche to assault”. It is simply unrelated. They are agressive and like to beat somebody up. Their parents? You know that they often are from the backest of backwaters in Morocco. Maybe that has something to do with it, instead of islam ?

So, “in the late 1990s, “you were “delightfully surprised to discover that when groups of straight teenage boys passed gay couples in the streets, they just walked past without any reaction whatsoever”. That is good. The biggest muslim immigration had already taken place, and the first riots also.

Can you give your readers the link, where they can read t